USFL-XFL merged league teams, size, season speculation

[johnnyangryfuzzball]

IMO the XFL never should have launched this late, 2022 was pushing it already. As I posted years ago, they were banking on Rock appeal. In the end Rock appeal XFL viewership = USFL even if it skewed younger. That could be because of winter v spring. Instead of merger talks with CFL they should have merged with USFL. Perhaps they learned from that they needed a season to be taken seriously.
But what ever the reason, they launched a year after USFL and it was a Split decision so why continue as is... its merge, fold or status blow. I've been calling for this merger from the minute XFL decided to have a season. Too similar, too much, too many teams.

How has the USFL lied? They stated they would all play in one hub in 2022, 2-4 hubs in 2023 - actually 4 hubs, the goal was always to get in all cities. TV drives the USFL and NY & Philly are needed. Of course the merger changes the specifics of the plans, yet the pros of the merger make it a must. Can DC replace Philly? Possibly. Could Dallas/DC replace NY, doubtful but possible. Having RBC as investor on board (we'll see for how long and how much) may be the $$ the combined league needs to make in home happen iin those expensive areas.

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

[Rmbay]

IMO the XFL never should have launched this late, 2022 was pushing it already. As I posted years ago, they were banking on Rock appeal. In the end Rock appeal XFL viewership = USFL even if it skewed younger. That could be because of winter v spring. Instead of merger talks with CFL they should have merged with USFL. Perhaps they learned from that they needed a season to be taken seriously.
But what ever the reason, they launched a year after USFL and it was a Split decision so why continue as is... its merge, fold or status blow. I've been calling for this merger from the minute XFL decided to have a season. Too similar, too much, too many teams.

How has the USFL lied? They stated they would all play in one hub in 2022, 2-4 hubs in 2023 - actually 4 hubs, the goal was always to get in all cities. TV drives the USFL and NY & Philly are needed. Of course the merger changes the specifics of the plans, yet the pros of the merger make it a must. Can DC replace Philly? Possibly. Could Dallas/DC replace NY, doubtful but possible. Having RBC as investor on board (we'll see for how long and how much) may be the $$ the combined league needs to make in home happen iin those expensive areas.

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

Is it a lie, though, or a miscalculation? To me, a lie carries the burden of being intentionally misleading, which I don't think this was. I mean, not getting those teams into those home markets is a big reason for a merger in the first place. It's all about cash flow.

The USFL teams were placed where they are/were as a combination of media markets and potential franchise sale. Obviously it hasn't gone as quickly or as smoothly as they thought.

As I've said before, the prospect of 6 hubs and 12 teams isn't one I think will go over well, and hopefully the influx of cash from RBC allows teams to play in their home markets, even if they need to fly in. The XFL played in MetLife in 2020, so while both leagues may have thought it cost-prohibitive at the start-up level, it may not be so cost-prohibitive if this merger produces more positive cash flow.

[4th&long]

IMO the XFL never should have launched this late, 2022 was pushing it already. As I posted years ago, they were banking on Rock appeal. In the end Rock appeal XFL viewership = USFL even if it skewed younger. That could be because of winter v spring. Instead of merger talks with CFL they should have merged with USFL. Perhaps they learned from that they needed a season to be taken seriously.
But what ever the reason, they launched a year after USFL and it was a Split decision so why continue as is... its merge, fold or status blow. I've been calling for this merger from the minute XFL decided to have a season. Too similar, too much, too many teams.

How has the USFL lied? They stated they would all play in one hub in 2022, 2-4 hubs in 2023 - actually 4 hubs, the goal was always to get in all cities. TV drives the USFL and NY & Philly are needed. Of course the merger changes the specifics of the plans, yet the pros of the merger make it a must. Can DC replace Philly? Possibly. Could Dallas/DC replace NY, doubtful but possible. Having RBC as investor on board (we'll see for how long and how much) may be the $$ the combined league needs to make in home happen iin those expensive areas.

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

So they go from 1 to 4 to 6 hubs in two years and that's not progress?

Calling a team NJ while playing in a hub isn't a lie, its a name, agreed not playing in market and therefore minimal sports news coverage is a result. The goal is still to get into mkt.

[johnnyangryfuzzball]

IMO the XFL never should have launched this late, 2022 was pushing it already. As I posted years ago, they were banking on Rock appeal. In the end Rock appeal XFL viewership = USFL even if it skewed younger. That could be because of winter v spring. Instead of merger talks with CFL they should have merged with USFL. Perhaps they learned from that they needed a season to be taken seriously.
But what ever the reason, they launched a year after USFL and it was a Split decision so why continue as is... its merge, fold or status blow. I've been calling for this merger from the minute XFL decided to have a season. Too similar, too much, too many teams.

How has the USFL lied? They stated they would all play in one hub in 2022, 2-4 hubs in 2023 - actually 4 hubs, the goal was always to get in all cities. TV drives the USFL and NY & Philly are needed. Of course the merger changes the specifics of the plans, yet the pros of the merger make it a must. Can DC replace Philly? Possibly. Could Dallas/DC replace NY, doubtful but possible. Having RBC as investor on board (we'll see for how long and how much) may be the $$ the combined league needs to make in home happen iin those expensive areas.

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

So they go from 1 to 4 to 6 hubs in two years and that's not progress?

Calling a team NJ while playing in a hub isn't a lie, its a name, agreed not playing in market and therefore minimal sports news coverage is a result. The goal is still to get into mkt.

Oh, my GOD!

It's not 1 to 4 to 6. It's 9 (8 XFL in '20, 1 USFL in '22) to 12 (8 in XFL, 4 in USFL in '23) and backward to 6, the fewest in a non-pandemic year since spring football came back in 2019. There was never any proof of intention to get into the big markets. The only top-10 market they bothered to try was Detroit. The rest were all small, cheap markets like Memphis, Birmingham and Canton.

At least TSL was honest enough to not put city names on their teams when they ran a hub.

[XFL4ever]

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

Exactly.

Might as well name the teams after planets (Venus, Mars, etc.).

The only goal of the USFL is to be a made-for-TV product. Minimal cost, minimal stadium effort, just marginal spring ball played on netural-ish fields to fill TV time. A live event. Charge a minimal amount for the sponsors and let the crowds in for cheap tickets and FOX can come out happy. The league, however, has no real purpose to develop players or city relationships.

[johnnyangryfuzzball]

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

Exactly.

Might as well name the teams after planets (Venus, Mars, etc.).

The only goal of the USFL is to be a made-for-TV product. Minimal cost, minimal stadium effort, just marginal spring ball played on netural-ish fields to fill TV time. A live event. Charge a minimal amount for the sponsors and let the crowds in for cheap tickets and FOX can come out happy. The league, however, has no real purpose to develop players or city relationships.

Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. TSL did it. But TSL also only named teams after the metro areas went they played and used a generic name for the others. That, and they didn't have to pay their players.

The XFL has clearly done better in ticket revenue... and that's not trivial. Averaging $50 a ticket and drawing 20,000 fans a game (certainly feasible, DC and STL did it) brings in $5,000,000 per team per year. That covers most of your roster salaries. Where does Fox get that money for the hub teams with near zero attendance?

If the goal is profit, there has to be multiple streams of revenue. Fox is foolish if they think continuing to subsidize hubs and ignoring ticket money is going to work. They'd be better off sponsoring Arena Football since that can be done on the cheap.

[Rmbay]

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

Exactly.

Might as well name the teams after planets (Venus, Mars, etc.).

The only goal of the USFL is to be a made-for-TV product. Minimal cost, minimal stadium effort, just marginal spring ball played on netural-ish fields to fill TV time. A live event. Charge a minimal amount for the sponsors and let the crowds in for cheap tickets and FOX can come out happy. The league, however, has no real purpose to develop players or city relationships.

IDK, sounds like easy cynicism to me. I mean, what would be the endgame here? If it was to operate as you say, wouldn't the idea of not attaching cities to team names be amongst the first things they would have considered? By attaching cities the first thing they do is put themselves in a box and put a shelf life on their product.

Trust me, I'm not a fan of the way the USFL does hubs and hope they don't go down the 6 hub road. But considering it's probably much more difficult to attract investors on a venture that's risky with one league much less two, I can't kill the for it just yet. But I think teams do need to be in their cities soon.

[laxtreme56]

How do you, for two whole years, call teams "Philadelphia," "Pittsburgh," "New Orleans," "New Jersey" and "Houston" yet never set one foot within the bounds of those metropolitan areas? And remember, these same reporters are also saying six hubs for the 12 merged teams. So the charade won't be done by Year 3, and like Tampa Bay Bandits, likely it never will be.

How is that not a lie? How is "oh, we'll get to it in the future" and then push that future further and further back, not a lie?

Nobody in NJ is watching the Generals. Nobody in Philly is watching or caring about the Stars. It's a lie.

Exactly.

Might as well name the teams after planets (Venus, Mars, etc.).

The only goal of the USFL is to be a made-for-TV product. Minimal cost, minimal stadium effort, just marginal spring ball played on netural-ish fields to fill TV time. A live event. Charge a minimal amount for the sponsors and let the crowds in for cheap tickets and FOX can come out happy. The league, however, has no real purpose to develop players or city relationships.

Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. TSL did it. But TSL also only named teams after the metro areas went they played and used a generic name for the others. That, and they didn't have to pay their players.

The XFL has clearly done better in ticket revenue... and that's not trivial. Averaging $50 a ticket and drawing 20,000 fans a game (certainly feasible, DC and STL did it) brings in $5,000,000 per team per year. That covers most of your roster salaries. Where does Fox get that money for the hub teams with near zero attendance?

If the goal is profit, there has to be multiple streams of revenue. Fox is foolish if they think continuing to subsidize hubs and ignoring ticket money is going to work. They'd be better off sponsoring Arena Football since that can be done on the cheap.

I think it might be a while before the league/s average 20k fans a game at $50 a ticket, but you're on the right track. I watched some of the WNBA finals last week, and NY Liberty tickets sold for an average $150 with a sellout crowd of 17k for games 3 and 4. While I don't consider myself a big WNBA fan, or basketball fan in general, their 2 decades of hard work is finally paying off.

The TV show angle can only work if the ratings are actually good. Football is a very expensive sport to produce and 700k viewers in primetime on Fox would get any other TV show cancelled right away. I did notice the quality of sponsors drop throughout the season ( a time share commercial during the championship game), advertisers are going to want a bigger ROI sooner than later. Let's hope the TV angle pays off or we'll be back to just the various indoor leagues as a spring football alternative

[4th&long]

Exactly.

Might as well name the teams after planets (Venus, Mars, etc.).

The only goal of the USFL is to be a made-for-TV product. Minimal cost, minimal stadium effort, just marginal spring ball played on netural-ish fields to fill TV time. A live event. Charge a minimal amount for the sponsors and let the crowds in for cheap tickets and FOX can come out happy. The league, however, has no real purpose to develop players or city relationships.

Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that. TSL did it. But TSL also only named teams after the metro areas went they played and used a generic name for the others. That, and they didn't have to pay their players.

The XFL has clearly done better in ticket revenue... and that's not trivial. Averaging $50 a ticket and drawing 20,000 fans a game (certainly feasible, DC and STL did it) brings in $5,000,000 per team per year. That covers most of your roster salaries. Where does Fox get that money for the hub teams with near zero attendance?

If the goal is profit, there has to be multiple streams of revenue. Fox is foolish if they think continuing to subsidize hubs and ignoring ticket money is going to work. They'd be better off sponsoring Arena Football since that can be done on the cheap.

I think it might be a while before the league/s average 20k fans a game at $50 a ticket, but you're on the right track. I watched some of the WNBA finals last week, and NY Liberty tickets sold for an average $150 with a sellout crowd of 17k for games 3 and 4. While I don't consider myself a big WNBA fan, or basketball fan in general, their 2 decades of hard work is finally paying off.

The TV show angle can only work if the ratings are actually good. Football is a very expensive sport to produce and 700k viewers in primetime on Fox would get any other TV show cancelled right away. I did notice the quality of sponsors drop throughout the season ( a time share commercial during the championship game), advertisers are going to want a bigger ROI sooner than later. Let's hope the TV angle pays off or we'll be back to just the various indoor leagues as a spring football alternative

Consider 2 decades of hard work and XFL/USFL beat them on rating. Also consider $150 in Manhattan is pocket change. NY area is richest in country. Its also a Metro Area of 20 million, Birm is 1.1 million. Its 18x larger, and loaded. You just aren't going to get those numbers easily in smaller cities that the per capita income is a fraction of NE especially NYC metro area.

[4th&long]

I'm already putting down what I think as I just waiting for an announcement like this.

Make your predictions now!

Mine...

The number of teams will be reduced likely 8-10 but no more than 12.

- COMPOSITION/HUB STATUS already posted but: If 8 Teams (60% chance): DALLAS, ST L, HOUSTON (Gamblers or Roughnecks) DC
MICH NJ MEMPHIS BIRMINGHAM
This covers 16.7% of US households. Dallas Birm Memphis hubs with games also played in DC, St L

For 10 teams (40%) USXFL:DALLAS ST L HOUSTON (Gamblers or Roughnecks) DC SA
MICH NJ MEMPHIS BIRMINGHAM PHILLY
This covers 20.05% of US households. Dallas Birm Memphis, DC hubs with games also played in SA, St L
(if Philly & NJ together too costly may stay with NOLA with either NJ or PHILLY gone, that drops 2% of US HH to 18.1%)

WEEKS - I'm going to say 12 weeks (60% chance) but possibly stay at 10 weeks (40%). Depends on what inventory the TV partners want.

I think its more weeks but less teams likely 8 Teams - 12weeks. That's 51 televised games.

- MONTHS- Interesting here FOX wanted Mid-Late Spring for TV, but Winter early Spring better for ratings- not sure. Will be interesting. I could see a 3rd week of March launch - maybe even a split first week launch due to NCAABB March Madness where Week 1 of USXFL is spread over 2 weekends.

Seattle and Orlando have positives but to reduce travel cost and such may get iced 1st. But Seattle does have that PST market and Orlando has that FL FB fan base, so you never know. Also SA may get the nod over Houston due to weather concerns and SA having no NFL/MLB/NHL team - Plus that dome makes weather moot and broadcasting more consistent.

A little off but damn close. I still think not having a NYC area team is going to hurt TV rating but hpefully in 2025. But if you are not going with NJ than Houston is logical as its just below philly in size as 3d largest TV market.

So what is left to speculate?

1- Houston as either Roughnecks or Gamblers is one.
2- Number of weeks for season - have we heard anything? is it 10 or 12 weeks? Likely 10 but with that earlier start who knows. Having more weeks (12) over 8 teams is cheaper than 10 weeks with 10 teams.
3- Ownership stucture? Is this really going to be one league with FOX/RBC as direct owners or is there some USFL/XFL split. With rights to IP based on that. Could this allow or separation? Or sale in chunks? I have no idea but the way this is dragging out it may be more nuanced than a straight 1 league, multiple owners such as MLS
4- TV network/partners and games rights by TV Net. With Disney having NBA/NHL playoffs and MLB what works best?
5- Is Russ the CEO? Likely. Where does Darrell J fit in? VP exec in charge of FB ops? who's in and who's out. I hope DJ stays on as FB ops and Russ does get the CEO position
6- What are the rules. Here a few main ones to consider:
-a) PAT - I way prefer USFL with the kick, 2pt and 3pt closer than XFL
-b) Inbounds rule on catch - I prefer the XFL 1 foot in bounds is acatch rule
-c) K/O - Prefer USFL
any others?
7- Outside investors - Is FedEx co-founder Smith in line for Memphis? Rocket Mort owner in line for Mich? Any Others? Both StL and SA such be ripe.

What else?

Less than 100 days till kickoff !

Merry Christmas! Happy New Year!