https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R46iL6HK-Vg
An interesting interview with Oliver Luck about his time heading XFL 2020 and reflections on what he saw of the UFL. Couple things stood out to me:
-Luck over and over again said it takes lots of money to make spring football work. Not surprising, but the reality that UFL seems to be pushing against in their quest to pinch pennies.
-He also mentioned his philosophy in trying to get local market fans to buy into the product in 2020, that he wanted to create a college-like relationship with the teams, the kind of rabid fanbases we see throughout college football. Though easier said than done, I thought that was interesting. I'm not sure what that would look like in practice in terms of building to that point.
Oliver Luck on The Markcast talking XFL 2020, UFL
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GregParks
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MGB01
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Re: Oliver Luck on The Markcast talking XFL 2020, UFL
"Pinching pennies"
This narrative continues to be tired. I know with new media of the last 20-30 years you can lock on to anything and it doesn't have to line with either previous reporting or facts on the ground, but at least make an effort here ok?
Was that strategy of the XFL that the UFL is continuing? If so, answer the following:
--How did the XFL supposedly lose way more than 60 mil if they were spending at Dollar Tree?
--How did Phillips and Stoops, with top-of-the-line hardware on their resumes, coach in the league? (And Stoops for 2.5 years between the two?)
--Why was the UFL even entertaining Caleb Williams and so on, considering that what they'd get max in one season of the UFL is roughly the equivalent of what they'd make in the first quarter of their NFL debut?
And if the XFL poured money down a sandpit in Vegas doesn't that kind of run counter to the penny-pinching theory?
Seems to me they're readying for '26 to go big, hell Friday night UFL's already a start.
This narrative continues to be tired. I know with new media of the last 20-30 years you can lock on to anything and it doesn't have to line with either previous reporting or facts on the ground, but at least make an effort here ok?
Was that strategy of the XFL that the UFL is continuing? If so, answer the following:
--How did the XFL supposedly lose way more than 60 mil if they were spending at Dollar Tree?
--How did Phillips and Stoops, with top-of-the-line hardware on their resumes, coach in the league? (And Stoops for 2.5 years between the two?)
--Why was the UFL even entertaining Caleb Williams and so on, considering that what they'd get max in one season of the UFL is roughly the equivalent of what they'd make in the first quarter of their NFL debut?
And if the XFL poured money down a sandpit in Vegas doesn't that kind of run counter to the penny-pinching theory?
Seems to me they're readying for '26 to go big, hell Friday night UFL's already a start.
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GregParks
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Re: Oliver Luck on The Markcast talking XFL 2020, UFL
MGB01 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 1:41 pm "Pinching pennies"
This narrative continues to be tired. I know with new media of the last 20-30 years you can lock on to anything and it doesn't have to line with either previous reporting or facts on the ground, but at least make an effort here ok?
Was that strategy of the XFL that the UFL is continuing? If so, answer the following:
--How did the XFL supposedly lose way more than 60 mil if they were spending at Dollar Tree?
--How did Phillips and Stoops, with top-of-the-line hardware on their resumes, coach in the league? (And Stoops for 2.5 years between the two?)
--Why was the UFL even entertaining Caleb Williams and so on, considering that what they'd get max in one season of the UFL is roughly the equivalent of what they'd make in the first quarter of their NFL debut?
And if the XFL poured money down a sandpit in Vegas doesn't that kind of run counter to the penny-pinching theory?
Seems to me they're readying for '26 to go big, hell Friday night UFL's already a start.
Let me start out by saying that the "pinching pennies" phrase came from me, not Luck, just in case there's any confusion. And really, "pinching pennies" is relative; The XFL under RedBird did not set out to spend the way McMahon in 2020 had planned to. So my comment was more in relation to that.
However, to your points...
-The XFL lost more than $60 million because starting a football league of this size is expensive. I think we'll all agree to that. The DEGREE to which you spend, however, is where the "pinching pennies" phrase comes in, IMO. The XFL and UFL have done A LOT to avoid further costs that other leagues (like XFL 2020) were willing to incur. Had the XFL gone to a season two - or even counting the first UFL season - I'm sure they didn't lose that much because so much of that $60 million was likely tied up into start-up costs. We've heard Mike Mitchell say over and over again that people in the sports industry were shocked the XFL didn't lose MORE than $60 million its first year. So either (a) they didn't spend as much as others expected or (b) they have a mysterious revenue stream that allowed them to offset a lot of those costs. My guess is a.
-Coaching did seem to be one area in which the XFL was willing to spend - for some. You could look at some of the inexperienced hires like Becht, Buckley, etc. as the XFL giving an opportunity to those who had not previously had the chance; or you could look at is as the league hiring HCs that would come cheaper. That would certainly allow them to spend more on Stoops, Phillips, and some of the more prominent names.
-Do you have a link to the UFL entertaining Caleb Williams? Because I feel like this is the first time I'm reading of it.
-Yeah, the XFL poured money into Vegas in year one. But they were quick to high-tail it out for year two (not that I blame them); The fault there, to me, lies in poor planning from XFL leadership rather than some kind of show that they were willing to spend $$.
To me, the evidence to the contrary is a lot stronger:
-The entire Arlington Hub idea is a way for the league not to spend money to set up shop in each individual market.
-The marketing/ticketing/boots on the ground people are, from what we understand, a small group rather than what it should take to build a viable market. We've seen the results with the attendance in UFL year one and really, even in XFL in 2023 in many markets.
-There was the story that the XFL spend only $120,000 on marketing for the 2022 season, another complaint by fans that the league didn't market itself properly https://digiday.com/marketing/why-the-x ... all-field/
-The reason the league did not return teams to CA and NY from 2020 was in large part because of the cost of running those states (I think The Rock even addressed that head-on on Twitter/X)
-The move the XFL had planned, and that the UFL is implementing, in transitioning so many employees to seasonal is a way to save money. We know coach salaries are already going to be slashed, which is why Hines Ward exited stage left, and there's a real lack of clarity about what coaches will return in 2025 under those circumstances. Maybe you could argue coaches SHOULD be seasonal, but when each team has a player personnel department of one (the GM), you'd think you'd want those coaches assisting with scouting in the offseason because there are literally thousands of players to consider.
-Having three teams in Texas sure does seem to save on travel!
I hope they do go big in 2026. I hope they eventually get out of the Arlington hub, I hope they pay enough to continue to attract top of the line coaches. I hope they eventually put enough employees in these markets to get the word out and get attendance up. But the fact that they haven't done those things yet is evidence, to me, of the "pinching pennies," again, RELATIVE to what we've seen leagues in this space do before.
However, to your points...
-The XFL lost more than $60 million because starting a football league of this size is expensive. I think we'll all agree to that. The DEGREE to which you spend, however, is where the "pinching pennies" phrase comes in, IMO. The XFL and UFL have done A LOT to avoid further costs that other leagues (like XFL 2020) were willing to incur. Had the XFL gone to a season two - or even counting the first UFL season - I'm sure they didn't lose that much because so much of that $60 million was likely tied up into start-up costs. We've heard Mike Mitchell say over and over again that people in the sports industry were shocked the XFL didn't lose MORE than $60 million its first year. So either (a) they didn't spend as much as others expected or (b) they have a mysterious revenue stream that allowed them to offset a lot of those costs. My guess is a.
-Coaching did seem to be one area in which the XFL was willing to spend - for some. You could look at some of the inexperienced hires like Becht, Buckley, etc. as the XFL giving an opportunity to those who had not previously had the chance; or you could look at is as the league hiring HCs that would come cheaper. That would certainly allow them to spend more on Stoops, Phillips, and some of the more prominent names.
-Do you have a link to the UFL entertaining Caleb Williams? Because I feel like this is the first time I'm reading of it.
-Yeah, the XFL poured money into Vegas in year one. But they were quick to high-tail it out for year two (not that I blame them); The fault there, to me, lies in poor planning from XFL leadership rather than some kind of show that they were willing to spend $$.
To me, the evidence to the contrary is a lot stronger:
-The entire Arlington Hub idea is a way for the league not to spend money to set up shop in each individual market.
-The marketing/ticketing/boots on the ground people are, from what we understand, a small group rather than what it should take to build a viable market. We've seen the results with the attendance in UFL year one and really, even in XFL in 2023 in many markets.
-There was the story that the XFL spend only $120,000 on marketing for the 2022 season, another complaint by fans that the league didn't market itself properly https://digiday.com/marketing/why-the-x ... all-field/
-The reason the league did not return teams to CA and NY from 2020 was in large part because of the cost of running those states (I think The Rock even addressed that head-on on Twitter/X)
-The move the XFL had planned, and that the UFL is implementing, in transitioning so many employees to seasonal is a way to save money. We know coach salaries are already going to be slashed, which is why Hines Ward exited stage left, and there's a real lack of clarity about what coaches will return in 2025 under those circumstances. Maybe you could argue coaches SHOULD be seasonal, but when each team has a player personnel department of one (the GM), you'd think you'd want those coaches assisting with scouting in the offseason because there are literally thousands of players to consider.
-Having three teams in Texas sure does seem to save on travel!
I hope they do go big in 2026. I hope they eventually get out of the Arlington hub, I hope they pay enough to continue to attract top of the line coaches. I hope they eventually put enough employees in these markets to get the word out and get attendance up. But the fact that they haven't done those things yet is evidence, to me, of the "pinching pennies," again, RELATIVE to what we've seen leagues in this space do before.
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MGB01
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Re: Oliver Luck on The Markcast talking XFL 2020, UFL
For the record I was never on the >60M bandwagon, that was Marchand that got a few people here all worked up (other than this I have no desire to revisit that thread), but just saying hypothetically. But even then, $140M is pinching pennies?
Vegas was put in as a western partner with Seattle. Fine, where else then? Seattle was on the verge of becoming one of the league's stronger markets--they held up with the Kraken and Sounders just fine and totally would be on the upswing as long as the Mariners continue to be run like a Little League team (which means however long they wanted to be there). I'd much rather watch the Vipers playing to 4500 at Bishop Gorman than I would the Showboats, the Panthers in an echo chamber, or the "Roughnecks" cause the USFL couldn't line anything up in NOLA or Canton.
Here's another question: Are there some USFL holdovers actively trying to sabotage the whole deal cause they bought into the whole superiority BS (with Moose at the forefront let's not forget)? I ain't putting anything past it. It's funny that I can just see, had he not gotten hurt and missed most of the year, Moose dumping on the Oilers, saying they'd play in front a real crowd on Turkey Day in Dallas (Oilers won too, haha), and now trying to make Memphis happen all these years later. Why dump millions in marketing on bad ones? Yeah you're kind of stuck with them now but let's face it. Fred Smith dumped all that money into Memphis' NIL, for a whopping 2000 at their spring game the next day. That's the very definition of being stuck. Shore up the better ones.
Vegas was put in as a western partner with Seattle. Fine, where else then? Seattle was on the verge of becoming one of the league's stronger markets--they held up with the Kraken and Sounders just fine and totally would be on the upswing as long as the Mariners continue to be run like a Little League team (which means however long they wanted to be there). I'd much rather watch the Vipers playing to 4500 at Bishop Gorman than I would the Showboats, the Panthers in an echo chamber, or the "Roughnecks" cause the USFL couldn't line anything up in NOLA or Canton.
Here's another question: Are there some USFL holdovers actively trying to sabotage the whole deal cause they bought into the whole superiority BS (with Moose at the forefront let's not forget)? I ain't putting anything past it. It's funny that I can just see, had he not gotten hurt and missed most of the year, Moose dumping on the Oilers, saying they'd play in front a real crowd on Turkey Day in Dallas (Oilers won too, haha), and now trying to make Memphis happen all these years later. Why dump millions in marketing on bad ones? Yeah you're kind of stuck with them now but let's face it. Fred Smith dumped all that money into Memphis' NIL, for a whopping 2000 at their spring game the next day. That's the very definition of being stuck. Shore up the better ones.
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Re: Oliver Luck on The Markcast talking XFL 2020, UFL
MGB01 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 6:10 pm For the record I was never on the >60M bandwagon, that was Marchand that got a few people here all worked up (other than this I have no desire to revisit that thread), but just saying hypothetically. But even then, $140M is pinching pennies?
Vegas was put in as a western partner with Seattle. Fine, where else then? Seattle was on the verge of becoming one of the league's stronger markets--they held up with the Kraken and Sounders just fine and totally would be on the upswing as long as the Mariners continue to be run like a Little League team (which means however long they wanted to be there). I'd much rather watch the Vipers playing to 4500 at Bishop Gorman than I would the Showboats, the Panthers in an echo chamber, or the "Roughnecks" cause the USFL couldn't line anything up in NOLA or Canton.
Here's another question: Are there some USFL holdovers actively trying to sabotage the whole deal cause they bought into the whole superiority BS (with Moose at the forefront let's not forget)? I ain't putting anything past it. It's funny that I can just see, had he not gotten hurt and missed most of the year, Moose dumping on the Oilers, saying they'd play in front a real crowd on Turkey Day in Dallas (Oilers won too, haha), and now trying to make Memphis happen all these years later. Why dump millions in marketing on bad ones? Yeah you're kind of stuck with them now but let's face it. Fred Smith dumped all that money into Memphis' NIL, for a whopping 2000 at their spring game the next day. That's the very definition of being stuck. Shore up the better ones.
No one is trying to sabotage the UFL from within, that's self immolation. May egos drag on decision making...? Maybe for a short while but FOX/RBC/DIsney in that order will be calling the shots. Memphis was a bad move from get go in USFL. If Fred Smith bails (low attendance), UFL will bail too.. And the city and surrounding area can screw themselves out of a great non-Big4 team.